Charismatic Ecumenism

Earlier this week I was tangled up in the comments of this article with a nest of charismatics who swarmed to defend Michael Brown’s response to my GTY blog article. I have to confess that I left my encounter with my heart a bit despondent.  I am beginning to realize more and more how charismatic theology devastates folks’ ability for discernment.

The basics of my exchange with Dr. Brown are simple:

John MacArthur has charged the charismatic movement of blaspheming the Holy Spirit by their bizarre antics, horrendous teaching, and false prophecies.  The reality of that blasphemy has weighed heavy on the heart of John his entire ministry career.  The things charismatics do in the name of God are similar to the “strange fire” Nadab and Abihu offered to God as recorded in Leviticus 10:1-7, and who were subsequently killed directly by God for their inappropriate worship.  John felt the need to have a major theological conference addressing and refuting charismatic theology that inevitably leads to such instances of “strange fire” among charismatic churches and the Christian church at large.  Hence the name of the upcoming GTY conference on the subject, Strange Fire.

Michael Brown, on the other hand, believes John is terribly mistaken to take up such strong words as “blasphemy” to describe his fellow charismatics.  He wrote up a couple of posts challenging John’s assertions even suggesting he is in danger of blasphemy himself because John broad brushes ALL charismatics as being involved in bizarre antics, horrendous teaching, and false prophecies.

Dr. Brown further claims that where the work of the Spirit is, there will be excesses that may need to be corrected, and points to the so-called “excesses” recorded about the first Great Awakening under Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield.  John MacArthur is like those critics of the Great Awakening, who saw the “excesses” taking place during the preaching of those two great evangelists as “blasphemy.”  John is guilty of quenching the Spirit and like the pharisees during Christ’s day, calling the clear work of God a work of Satan.

After Dr. Brown published those two articles against John, of course a number of supporters wanted our “official” response to him, so I was tasked to write it up. My approach was straightforward: I wanted to illustrate what John MacArthur means by “blasphemy.”  Using the very individuals Dr. Brown claims are “fine godly leaders” I demonstrated from their own teaching ministries that they “blaspheme” in the exact way John describes. They promote false prophecies and errant theological teaching and engage in bizarre antics.

So. Rather than responding to the clear examples I put forth, what does Dr. Brown do? He blows past them and says this whole debate has to do with whether or not continuationism is biblical or cessationism is biblical and we need to meet for a face-to-face to discuss.

No response to whether or not Bickle and Engle are false prophets because they “prophesied” falsely (something Bickle himself claims in this video). No response as to whether or not Cindy Jacobs is a liar on the magnitude of Ergun Caner when she claimed to have fed 3,000 people at a Colorado Springs crusade. Not a word.

The only response I did receive from Dr. Brown is his reiterated claim that he speaks out against the bad stuff that pops up among charismatic circles every once in a while. He even tweeted out a link to an article he wrote decrying the inappropriateness of sexy celebrity preacher women who speak in tongues.

Really?

I’ll be the first to shout “amen!” to Dr. Brown’s rebuke against sexy, tongue-speaking lingerie models, but let’s take it a step further: Are those people even Christians? Do they represent biblical Christianity? That is the line of demarcation between myself and Dr. Brown: He willingly affirms, either with verbal affirmation or a silent non-response, individuals that I would say are not even Christians and promote a false, soul-damning gospel, let alone genuinely “manifest” the gifts of the Spirit.

In fact, that is what discouraged me about the entire exchange I had with all the charismatic folks in the comments of Dr. Brown’s article responding to my GTY article. No one was willing to recognize genuine false prophets and charlatans in their midst and call them what they truly are, wolves among sheep.

Instead I was rebuffed for being critical and cutting with my words and having a loathsome tone with how I interacted with people. What I really needed to do is step away from the computer and examine my heart rather than call people false teachers and so forth.

Unbelievable.

Meanwhile, as I am being chased about by those fingerwaggers, a sidebar ad was running on the very same site promoting a conference featuring T.D. Jakes, Creflo Dollar, and Joel Osteen. Seriously. If you recall, two of those individuals are anti-trinitarian, which means they don’t even confirm the orthodox, historic Christian faith.

Honestly. What is “Christian” and “biblical” about the Health-N-Wealth gospel that imagines God as a fertility cult deity who lavishes prosperity upon followers who willingly please him in some prescribed fashion, typically the giving of large sums of money to the self-appointed “priest” who speaks for the deity.

Now Dr. Brown, along with other charismatics, affirm our criticism of Health-N-Wealth prosperity gospel peddlers. To compare all charismatic activity to the things those individuals promote is unfair and off the mark.

However, Dr. Brown specifically defends his involvement with the Brownsville revival that took place in the mid-90s as proof of the genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit among God’s people.  He challenges John MacArthur’s criticisms of the revival with his first-hand testimony saying that the Holy Spirit was present calling people to Christ and so forth.

But take a look at this video. Fast-forward to the 1hr. 13min. mark when this guy from Russia starts talking. Behind him stands these people, a few women in particular, who convulse and gyrate as if they are bewitched. One woman looks as if she has been gripped by a seizure and needs medical attention. How exactly is that a genuine “move” by the Spirit?

Take a look at this video. Around the 6min. mark, people begin getting “slain” in the spirit. How is what I see here even remotely related to biblical Christianity? Listen to the evangelist talking and around the 7min. mark he begins going “bah, bah, bah, bah, bah” which I take it to mean he is “speaking in tongues.” For the sake of argument, let’s say the gift of tongues has not ceased and continues to manifest among Christians today. Is this an instance of biblical tongues? I can confidently say that he was NOT speaking with the gift of tongues, but was merely babbling nonsense. Though this guy’s fake tongues appears frivolous, that is the serious blasphemy that John has spoken about. It’s attributing the work of the Spirit to foolishness. If that is not blasphemy, what is?

What really troubles me is this confusing spirit of ecumenism winding itself through charismatic groups. As long as the person or persons name Jesus, can provide emotional stirring events, and draws large crowds, its all “of the Lord” and no one is to judge. We are to all get along without question. But that is a disastrous spirit to entertain in our churches.

Dr. Brown says we need to talk and not fight, but I believe the talk has been long over. We need to fight; he needs to fight. Our disagreement goes beyond an open discussion of continuationism vs. cessationism. There are vicious and cruel spiritual wolves at work in the midst of charismatic circles masquerading as spirit filled leaders that no one there wishes to confront and throw out. Why is that?

When I confront them in that article, or John does in his teaching, we’re branded haters.  Everyone else turns a dismissive, blind eye toward them in the name of a phony tolerance and the “love” of the brethren.  This cannot be. There are souls at stake here, and charismatic folks don’t seem to see that imminent danger in their own ranks and that worries me.

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33 thoughts on “Charismatic Ecumenism

  1. “What really troubles me is this confusing spirit of ecumenism winding itself through charismatic groups. As long as the person or persons name Jesus, can provide emotional stirring events, and draws large crowds, its all “of the Lord” and no one is to judge. We are to all get along without question. But that is a disastrous spirit to entertain in our churches.”

    Thank you Fred for continuing to fight the good fight. It’s not easy, and I am sure you have a burden in your heart for the people who are caught up in this charismatic chaos.

    I have been following the blogs and comments. Most of them (over at Brown’s blog) are really disheartening. The blindness and lack of discernment is great. I pray that the Holy Spirit will move in some of their minds (and hearts) and open their eyes to what true worship really is and repent of their offering of strange fire.

    E.

  2. Pingback: Notable Quotable: “Ecumenism and the Charismatic Movement” – Fred Butler | Santa Monica Church Blog

  3. Hey Fred–wanted to send you some encouragement and thank you meeting this challenge head-on. I appreciate your running to the sound of the battle in this truly life and death struggle for souls.

    The times I’ve witnessed Charismatic ‘worship’ (thankfully few), I’ve always been struck by how the satanic forces must revel in all the babbling being put forth rather than true, fervent prayer. What wasted effort.

    I also wanted to make a comment about the ‘Brownsville revival’. I live in the Pensacola area, having moved here after this ‘movement’ ceased. However, I know people who attended and the past and current history of the church has been accurately and fairly documented in the local paper (I know, hard to believe). Basically, what Dr. Brown points to as a highpoint of spiritual movement has left the church a sort of Charismatic Detroit, a mere shell of its former self and overburdened with debt, while some evidently profited greatly from it. It’s a sad testament to something being presented as a great movement of our Holy Spirit. A spirit, yes, but just which one?

  4. Yeah. I watched that thread for a bit. It was an obnoxious headache. My “favorite” part? The way everyone decried MacArthur for saying that Brown was dissembling, followed by calls for MacArthur to repent. See, apparently it’s okay for charismatics to call MacArthur’s integrity into question, but NOT okay for him to do the same.

    Shameful.

  5. Fred:

    I spent approximately 12 years in the Charismatic church and I can unequivocally confirm that your assessment is correct. The requirements are simple: 1. Talk about “The Blood”, 2. Imbibe the emotional crack and 3. Ascribe everything to the Lord.

    You’ll never see Charismatic Jack and Joe squabbling over who gets to exercise their gift of helps by mowing Widow Wilson’s lawn. It’s all about the show, the spotlight, the attention, the mic.

    While some claim that they decry the excesses and abuses, there is no division in the Charismatic camp. They all dine under one big tent where the fringe and mainstream share the same stage.

    jules

  6. The charismatic Detroit comparison is spot on. Good call on that. I have just recently read about Brownsville being in massive debt and the lack of “crowds” and support. Truly sad.

  7. There’s the rub. I think it’s just exactly this:

    When Open-But-Cautious Oscar defends charismaticism/”continuationism” —
    (A) He is defending an idealized mirage of his own design, while
    (B) Real-live snakes and vermin shelter beneath Oscar’s defense, yet
    (C) Oscar accepts no responsibility for (B)

    Biblical Christians aim at B, and are derided for being so mean to A.

  8. “To be clear, I am not attacking Pastor MacArthur, whom I commended in so many ways in my first article ”
    ~ Micheal Brown

    “And it is only fair to ask whether Pastor MacArthur, in his rightful zeal to correct excesses or errors in the charismatic movement—what he calls “strange fire”— IS ALSO GUILTY of rejecting the true fire.”
    ~ Micheal Brown in mentioned first article

    Talking about a double talk here and from both corners of the same mouth almost at the same time… How is this double talk comparing with and squaring with this:

    “Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.”
    Matthew 5:37, ESV

    And again:

    “Mr. Butler urges me to “follow John’s example with regard to [Mike] Bickle, [Lou] Engle, and [Cindy] Jacobs”—some of those dubbed “wackos” by Mr. Butler—“rather than attack someone”—meaning John MacArthur—“who has spent his life as a caring, faithful shepherd of the sheep.”

    To be clear, I am not attacking Pastor MacArthur, whom I commended in so many ways in my first article and whom I referred to as “my senior in the Lord” in my second article. Rather, I have respectfully taken issue with the way he has lambasted others, some of whom have also spent their lives as caring, faithful shepherds of the sheep.”

    ~ Micheal Brown

    So he is not “attacking” John MacArthur but for any logical and reasonable mind with attention span longer than 3 minutes he is clearly attacking. So he is asked about his associations and support for Bickle and Engle, Jacobs and other notoriously false pseudo teachers yet he ducks, evades and hides from this very troubling and weighting issue… So again I am asking how is this type of rhetoric squaring up with these words below?

    “Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.”
    Matthew 5:37, ESV

  9. Pingback: Charis-mania/chaos and related movements, discussion, research, cautions/warnings - Page 2 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

  10. Blessings to you Fred, be encouraged brother because it is blogs and websites like this that caused me to take my family and flee the Vineyard movement about 7 months ago. Something was wrong but I couldn’t quite figure out what it was, but by God’s grace I was lead to a few websites and really started to study the word and listen to bible and Christ centered teaching. So do not dismay for the Lord is working and now my wife and I are sounding the alarm to friends and family and all who will listen. God bless.

  11. Keep on pressing forward Fred. Praying for you, Lyndon Unger, JMac and the whole crew behind the Strange Fire Conference

  12. Thanks for the updated post. What amazes me is the “is this confusing spirit of ecumenism winding itself through charismatic groups”. If one is Catholic and speaks in tongues but still worships Mary and obeys the Roman Catholic church, no corrections come from the charismatic groups. Clearly Rome’s teachings are in error but yet if they speak in tongues then nothing appears to be said to correct those false beliefs. John Wimber of the The Vineyard asked forgiveness of a Catholic in one of his Power Meetings for leaving the Catholic Church?Derek Prince will speak out about idolatry in his teachings, and books but never once condemns Roman Catholics for Mary Worship and the false teachings of the RC Church.

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  15. Fred,
    On July 9th, Dr. Brown had a “Cessationist Call-In Day.” There was a man who wrote blogs referring to the Holy Spirit as “s/he,” or simply “she.” Imagine the trinity: He the Father, He the Son, and She the Holy Spirit. That IS blasphemy. I asked both Greg and Dr. Brown to comment on that.

    Dr. Brown didn’t address it, but rather addressed other questions I asked him, such as why we don’t have those with the gift of interpretation if so many across the nation are truly speaking with the biblical gift of tongues. He said that there are probably thousands with the gift.
    He also said that some of the worst “academic” work that John has ever done has been his commentary of I Corinthians, chapters 12-14.

    That’s not an attack–just simply the facts. What are your thoughts on my dialogue with Dr. Brown?

  16. Fred, I’m thankful this conference is going on this fall, and for the articles you’ve written. It is sad the lack of discernment about what a Christian actually is. I’m thankful the Word is faithfully preached by Dr. MacArthur and the other speakers scheduled. May the Holy Spirit open eyes to the truth!

  17. _I have recently left the Christian faith and have embraced the Messianic movement and from what I’ve seen from Christianity(all sides) it is no wonder there are such “carrying ons and shenanigans”.
    The “speaking in tongues” of the book of Act was not the gobbledygook which is spoken today in modern churches. The people outside actually understood what’s being said by Peter and the Upper Room crowd. Not he “rubber dinghy, half-a-shandy, baa, baa, baa ”

    The falling over and the lion’s roar (ha!)is probably demonic or at least fleshy.
    Discernment is no longer allowed and should you point out anything that’s unbiblical, you’re told not to judge- “to make a decision on what you see”.
    As for the “self-acclaimed” apostles of the Charismatic movement , what gives them the right to say it’s “of God”or not? Todd Bentley is still an adulterer today with Cindy Jacobs, Rick Joyner, Peter C Wagner and Bill Johnson being endorsers of his ministry. Even as we speak, the ” Emerging Church” is the new ecumenism with its post-modern gurus and fake showers of gold-dust and feather
    The root cause is its roots. Is Christianity fom Rome or from God? For even the Church Fathers are guilty of mixing truth with error. A Greek mindset, trying to understand a Hebrew one caused errors that are still with us today. Replacement Theology is what we have today for their sins.

    It’s time the Christian church turned back to its proper roots- The Olive Tree of Israel and realise that it is a “wild olive branch, grafted in “( Roms 11:17-21) and not the tree itself.

  18. I was sucked into this movement when I was a new Christian and this was one of the things that was touted as being an evidence of the Holy Spirit’s work – people from all these different…”areas” of the church were beginning to surface and were speaking in tongues (Catholic’s, Baptist’s, Episcopalian’s, Lutheran’s, etc., etc.). This was bringing unity to the Body. Tongues was THE indicator that the Holy Spirit was bringing this unity. If the person spoke in tongues that was enough and no other questions were asked about doctrine. Doctrine divides. The Spirit brings unity.

  19. Pingback: Around the Blogosphere and Other Stuff 8/4 | resolved to reason

  20. His refusal to say anything to what sounds like a clearly confused statement about the Holy Spirit and the Trinity sounds par for the course for him. He has said that John and us here at GTY are way too quick to label things “heretical” and “false,” whereas we are troubled by the fact he is absolutely non-critical of anything that is serious error. We just don’t get it.

  21. For what it’s worth, my church is “charismatic lite” and I’ve never seen any of the crazy stuff in those videos take place at any of our functions. By “charismatic lite” (my term, not the church’s) I mean “not cessationist, but also nutty or flamboyent”. Some people speak in tongues, but its not the majority and those who do typically view it as a kind of private prayer or worship language. Occasionally someone might dance (in place) or sway during corporate worship, or maybe prostrate themselves, but there’s no shaking, twitching or falling down. My only point in all this being: it’s very easy to pick out examples of people faking or abusing the gifts (and/or coupling them with fundamentally flawed theology) and use those examples to tar the enitere camp of believers who happen not to be MacArthur-style cessationists.

  22. “back to its proper roots” EEKid do you realize what is the purpose of grafting? It is to strengthen the tree and not only it horticulture but also in church. Let me show you this strength which is far beyond the strength of the root, far beyond the strength of the trunk and far beyond the strength of the branches for it is the strength of a new and whole tree:

    “3:23 Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed. 3:24 Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 3:26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female – for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise.”

    Galatians 3:23-29 NET

    You want to be the root burried under the custody where you need to be a full grown tree swaying on the winds of Grace…

  23. Pingback: An Update to the Update on the whole Michael Brown/Strange Fire/John MacArthur hullabaloo, with some thoughts on Brown’s article responding to Conrad Mbewe | Watch Your Life and Doctrine Closely...

  24. Thanks Despeville for you reply.
    But…..the idea of grafting in was so that the Gentiles could be involved in the salvation process not to strengthen, for what did the Gentiles do before finding salvation(Ephesians 2:1-3). God did not covenant with the Gentiles but with Israel.
    When God gave His commandments He was speaking to Israel (Ex 19:5-6).
    Please remember that there is a partial hardening on Israel’s part so that the number of Gentiles coming in will be fulfilled.
    As for the Law, it has not by any means been removed. Yeshua saying this: “Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to Fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, ll heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass away”(Matt 5:17-18) NKJV.
    What has been remove is the penalty of sin which is death(Roms 8:1-4)
    Most Christian churches deliberately omit Romans chapters 9-11, for this tells us that God has not forgotten Israel nor has He made the Gentiles the stronger branch.

  25. EEKid,

    Salvation is not “a process”. It is an accomplished choice, will and act of God. Your focus on Mosaic Covenant by the virtue of a “new religion” you have found yet you seem to have this focus at the cost of all the other covenants and especially the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 12:1–3) and which is PRIOR to it and far GREATER not to mention The Covenant of Grace the greatest of them all. This mostly due to misunderstanding of who Israel of God is and it is not what you have been told by those who want to claim it due to DNA or their traditions. Here is a clue:

    ” It is not as though the word of God had failed. For NOT ALL all those who are descended from Israel are TRULY ISRAEL, nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.” This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; RATHER, the children of promise are counted as descendants.”

    Romans 9:6-8 NET

    This pretty much annihilates and vaporizes to nothingness much of the assumptions of Messianic movement. As far as the law none says it is not valid. This kind of a straw man is a favorite of Messianic movement on which they kick with passion but in vain. I already quoted from Romans 9 so that should tell you how I “avoid” it. Romans 9-10 is about each and every individual election of God to salvation from Jews and from Gentiles and not about wholesale group election. Look:

    ” But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 9:23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory – 9:24 even us, whom he has called, not only FROM THE JEWS but also FROM THE GENTILES?”

    Romans 9:22-24 NET

    Finally, I think it would be good for you to read this linked article below. It is written by a Jew and not a Messianic one but a Christian Reformed one and for a reason. It debunks another favorite straw man of Messianic movement, the bogeyman of so called “Replacement Theology”… Please do read:

    “NOT REPLACEMENT…EXPANSION!” by Fred Klett from Chaim.org: http://www.chaim.org/xpansion.htm

  26. Salvation is a process and not as how I was taught as a “there and then”. I realise now that it is about “overcoming”, and being changed from “glory to glory”. Is it any wonder the Apostle Sh’aul would say “That in the last days, the Spirit expressly says that some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons”? (1 Timothy 4:1) which means one CAN lose their salvation. One is ‘being’ saved.
    When Yeshua died and rose again, it is by an on-going faith in Him that keeps us.

    The Avrahamic Covenant was first given to his seed Yitzchak then to Yacov, then from there the nations would be blessed (Gen 12:2-3). Please remember “salvation to the Jew first then the Gentiles” (Roms 1:16, John 4:22b).

    The Mosaic Covenant has not been annulled. But Christianity would like you to think so.
    Do you still continue to steal? Do you still continue to dishonour your father and mother? Do you continue to commit adultery? Does a man continue to sleep with another man as with a woman? You may be able to answer and say “Certainly not” to theses. So why is that when I was a Christian I was told to break His Sabbath commandment?. “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy” (Ex 20:8).
    The only things that pertain to the Mosaic Covenant which have been removed (for the time being) are the Levitical priesthood, the sacrifice of bulls and goats, tithing (oops, it’s amazing how I am told we are no longer under the Law(Mosaic) yet to this day the Christian church continues to rob money from people in through deceptive claims in Malachi 3 and the Avraham verse about Melchezidec).
    Concerning your link. No real Jew ever becomes a Christian. Why? Because Meshiach was Jewish and He kept the Commandments and the Jews are looking for a Jewish Meshiach not Gentile one that breaks the Sabbath and doesn’t keep the feasts. Plus the mixing of truth with error down the ages starting with the Early Church Fathers right the way through to the Reformers and to this very day. This is the one of the reasons the Jews reject Christianity. But your link hasn’t realised that the Reformers rejected true believism in Yeshua, persecuted the Jews and continue to this day, in disobedience hence the nonsense of Charismania, The Emerging Church and Replacement Theology.
    The family tree has not been extended but has had assimilation to it, for it is the commonwealth of Israel (Eph 2:12)

  27. EEKid,

    You are confused on so many levels that it is literally impossible to address all of it in depth in this format. Most importantly you are literally completely confused as to what is justification and what is sanctification. This is very typical for any religion that teaches works in some way and sense as a condition in “salvation” and as such a grievous and deadly error.

    “When Yeshua died and rose again, it is by an on-going faith in Him that keeps us.”
    EEKid

    That is DESCRIPTIVE of salvific faith and not PRESCRIPTIVE in a sense of man’s ability to do so… NO MAN can keep the faith on his own. No man but God through a man.

    The Abrahamic Covenant was given to Abraham and those who will follow in his footsteps. Mosaic Covenant abides but NOT in salvific sense i.e. that a sinful man can possibly comply with. Mosaic Covenant is railway on which Grace foretold in Abrahamic Covenant moved and moves in. If you think that you do not break the commandments EVERY SINGLE DAY you are sadly deceiving yourself or you are being deceived into that error.

    “Concerning your link. No real Jew ever becomes a Christian.”

    Interesting that you not being a Jew pass on judgment and verdict as to who is in a bilogical or religious sense and entirely based on your enchantment with Messianic Jews or Jews want to be…You continue to espouse to flashy, man oriented, tribal pseudo understanding of Jewishness completely opposed to the one taught in New Testament or B’rit Chadashah as you probably call it by now :) Look here how true Jew chosen by The Lord to preach to Jews and Gentiles defines true Jewishness past the flesh and traditions and in TOTAL OPPOSITION to your Messianic movement definition of Jewishness:

    “For NO ONE is a Jew who is merely one OUTWARDLY, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one INWARDLY, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, BY THE SPIRIT, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.”
    Romans 2:28-29

    Yet you will ignore this text just as you did ignore Romans 9:6-8. You have to, to keep it going with your “new and the only true religion”… If it is so true why do you have to avoid it? Why is it that you so cavalierly make broad and general accusations and caricatures but when pressed for details on concrete arguments from the Word of God you run for cover by quickly jumping to other issues and text??? Hmmm…. Rather telling for a “true religion” Is it not? If it would be true you would not have to do that. As it is you do and have to do just that.

    Not only Romans 2:28-29 teaching or Romans 9:6-8 teaching and so many others is opposite to what you have been told whether you like it or not but it has certain implications for the one who wants to be perceived by men as a “Jew” or “Jew like”…

    I am also rather certain that not only you have NOT read very much if any from Early Church Fathers but also that you have NOT read from the Reformers but you go on and repeat what was given to you to repeat about them without you EVER FIRST reading extensively from them in their primary sources and in their context. This is indeed very sad but also so expected and so cliche.

    Finally, as to this running back into shadows instead of the substance in Christ as in: “not Gentile one that breaks the Sabbath and doesn’t keep the feasts.” etc. etc. etc. I will let the Word of God deal with this misguided charge which you have swallowed as truth. Let the Word of God shine on this enchantment with Jewish feasts, myths and imaginations of ability to fulfill the law which notion of in itself is nothing but assured second death:

    “Therefore let NO ONE PASS JUDGMENT you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a FESTIVAL or a new moon or a SABBATH. These are a SHADOW of the things to come, but the SUBSTANCE belongs to Christ.”
    ~ Colossians 2:16-17

    “For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and DECEIVERS, especially those of the CIRCUMCISION PART. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, NOT devoting themselves to JEWISH MYTHS and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.”
    ~ Titus 1:10-14

    “One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
    ~ Romans 14:5-6

    Of course you will go on in this “new religion” and will come full circle for there is nothing there but shadows and shadows do not point to life not are they the substance. It will cost you a lot of heartache and pain but such is the way we must go through sometimes. God bless you and enough said.

  28. Despeville, you say that I am “confused” on all levels but should you look back at the leading article, it is the Christian faith which is confused for it has within it Charismania- The false revivals, its self-appointed apostles and false conversions.
    As the Bible says “For God is not the author of confusion” 1 Cor 14:33. So why is there confusion? Simply because Christianity has never been with God because it rejects God’s Law(Torah).
    You are right that salvation and justification belong to God alone but the faith given by Him is to be “worked out” in fear and trembling-a continuing reliance on Him and His commandments which you reject. Remember the same God that was walking in Galilee and doing His Father’s will in the Br’t Chadashah was the same God who spoke to Avraham, Yacov and Moses in the Tanakh. Christianity seems to forget this..
    Your attitude concerning breaking God’s Sabbath and that everyone sins everyday is a lacksidaisal approach to what God wants us to become. When He took the Children of Israel out of Egypt, it was His wanting to make Jacob into Israel- a holy (separated people) and to give them certain laws to “distinguish” Himself from the other gods, therefore when Christianity comes along and says “there is no need for the Mosaic Law” it has lost the plot. For it was God’s wanting that the Gentiles too, to be involved in this process.
    Which brings me to the verse of Roms 9 “Not all Israel was Israel” This cannot apply to the Christian because of its rejection and its non-understanding of what Meshiach did.
    Yeshua came to “ratify” what was given at Moab before the entering of Caanan(Deut 27-29) by being the blood sacrifice that was to come, replacing the sacrificial system (for the time being).So this idea that Christianiy is the New Covenant is false, if anything it should be called the “Re-newed Covenant)
    Just a small one. The idea that “grace” only came in the New Testament is wrong, it came when Adam sinned, for Adam did not die on the spot but was given 930 years before he passed away now that’s what I call “grace”!!!.

    About the Early Church Fathers and the Reformers. “Christian Theology” by Alastair McGrath is an extensive book on all what went on after the Apostles and their disciples had died. From Polycarp, Josephus, Pliny, Justin Martyr, Iraeneus, Augustine all the way to Erasmus,Luther, Calvin, Zwingli up to the present date. I have studied enough of these people to warrant me to comment on their beliefs and was at Bible College for three years. Please don’t patronize me.

    With that being said, Colossians 2:16-17. The New moons and Sabbaths have not changed and Sh’aul (Paul) did not break the Feasts nor the Sabbath, for he was a Hebrew. He, if anything, was talking about those who would come and criticise those who kept the feasts, Sabbaths etc i.e. Christianity, to the extent that Sundays and pagan feasts are being kept (Christmas and Easter) instead of what was prescribed by God.

  29. Pingback: Articles on Cessationism and Contiuationism | hipandthigh

  30. Pingback: Articles on Cessationism, Continuationism, and Spiritual Gifts | hipandthigh

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