An Update on Bob Johnson

The Transformation Buster

[EDITOR’S NOTE November 2012. I am re-posting this article just as a demonstration of inconsistency on Bob’s part. Around August of 2010, I received word that Bob had repented of his factious and slanderous accusations against John MacArthur and Grace Community Church. I was pleased to hear that news, as I relayed in the post below.  However, since that time, I have learned Bob has back-slidden into his old ways, pretty much rendering this post moot].

Some long time readers may remember the name, Bob Johnson.For the last four years or so, Bob has been a loud voice warning the Christian Church at large about John MacArthur and our ministries at Grace Church.

I first encountered Bob in May of 2006 out in front of Grace Church on Roscoe Blvd. He was passing out a multi-page report that allegedly documented how a couple of our fellowship groups had succumbed to Purpose Driven Life philosophy and were engaged in seeker-sensitive church growth techniques. He further claimed the PDL philosophy was really akin to Hegelian-Marxist techniques that seek to brainwash individuals to think in terms of an ungodly group think (whatever that maybe). Some of the ways this “group think” supposedly manifested itself was in the manner of “vision casting” talk, small group dynamics where “facilitators,” as Bob called them, would lead the group in “brainwashing” sessions, and the building of relationships.

Bob also had it in for Al Mohler, claiming that he was a secret, U.N. agent bent on infiltrating the Christian Church in America.

I spent a good 30-40 minutes talking with Bob and I wrote up our initial encounter with a snarky posted entitled, My Interview with a Crackpot.

I thought Bob would remain something of a onetime, local conspiracy kook, but before I knew it, he had taken to the internet with his screeds against John and Grace Church. Both Phil Johnson (no relation) and I would receive phone calls and emails from individuals from all over the world asking about the accusations in Bob’s papers. One of the recent mission conferences even addressed Bob’s material, because he was claiming our Master’s Academy International, a seminary ministry designed to train foreign national pastors in their home countries, was a secret group with the agenda to subvert the Christian churches in the various countries where they operated.

It became clear Bob needed to have something of an answer, at least to me. I pulled together a number of personal emails I exchanged with Bob and a couple of his minions (though I think one or two of them was the Bob in question) and I published them as apologetic articles for inquirers who had run across his internet sites.

This past Friday, August 27th, Phil Johnson informed me he had received a phone call from Bob apologizing for the articles. He further informed Phil that he had taken down his websites and would no longer be posting against John. His main reason is that he believed he was too judgmental in an unbiblical way. Phil encouraged him to make some public announcement of his change, which to Bob’s credit he did at his The Watchman Wakes in Vain site.

Seeing that I have been Bob’s most vocal opponent, I thought I would post it here:

I have deleted the article regarding the transformation of John Macarthur’s church. The reason this article was deleted is because it was an article written in judgment which is unbiblical. It was also written more in a spirit of “I’ll show you” than in love.. Does that mean that the facts in the article were untrue? I am unaware of any factual errors in that report.

 

For instance, did Grace Church have purpose driven ministries? Yes. Do/did they have ministries that partner with governments and UN-NGO member orgs? Yes. Are their agents transforming Grace Church from within? Absolutely. Phil Johnson belongs to an org called FIRE. This org has a slogan identical to that of Phoenix Freemasonry. I said that was of interest but I never intended that anyone assume Phil Johnson was a Mason. I apologize to others at Grace Church who have been similarly hurt.

 

Judge not lest you be judged. It was wrong for me to sit in judgment of Grace Church and John Macarthur and others. Only by God are they judged. How can I judge the speck in the eye’s of others when I have a log in my own? And I fear now that His judgment is upon me.

In spite of Bob’s claim that what he wrote he believed was factually true, it was not. I will say a lot of his charges against our Church stem more from his strange interpretations of what he considers “church growth” philosophy. If he begins with his particular model in place, I can see how he can easily find ghouls when none really exist. For instance, we have never utilized “Purpose Driven Life” principles in any of our ministries. The use of small groups, utilizing contemporary music, even talking about “catching a vision” does not equate to church growth-PDL philosophy and is only a figment of Bob’s conspiratorial mindset.

I will say I am concerned for Bob, especially regarding his last sentence of how he is fearful of God’s judgment coming upon him. I have never wished such a thing on Bob, just that he would admit his mistake and cease from lying against my pastor and church.

In addition to Phil’s admonition to put up an announcement about why he is doing what he is doing, I would even encourage Bob to write up a page to be handed out to our congregation expressing his wrong doing and asking for forgiveness and spend a Sunday or two handing it out to the folks coming and going to church. Maybe it is a little too much and perhaps unneeded, but I for one would love to see how God can change one of the biggest critics of my church into one of the biggest supporters.

The Bob Johnson Saga, Continued…

See a previous email response to Bob, HERE.

Some long time readers may remember my interaction with a local anti-Grace Church activist by the name of Bob Johnson. What Darwin Fish was as an antagonist to Grace Church in the 1990s, Bob Johnson has become in the 2000s.

Bob claims that Grace Community Church, the church where John MacArthur pastors, has been infiltrated by diabolical change agents who wish to introduce church growth ideology to the congregation. Originally, Bob believed this was happening without John realizing it, now he seems to think John was completely aware of it at the very start.He began his notoriety by standing on the sidewalk in front of our church handing out a 10 page paper entitled “A Wake Up Call to the Saints of Grace Community Church” in which he provides the so-called documentation proving his accusations against Grace. Now Bob has moved to the Internet where he has placed an updated version of that paper on a website called John MacArthur Exposed [Link no longer active – 11/16/12]. He also maintains another website called The Watchman Wakes on which he publishes even more screeds against John and pastors of Grace Church.

In November 2009, Bob and his “findings” against Grace became the subject of a few webcasts put out by a former pastor here in LA by the name of John Coleman. John regularly entertains the ideas of another guy from LA by the name of Robert Klenck, an orthopaedic surgeon by profession, who has developed a lot of the so-called anti-church growth apologetics used by Bob. Together, these two men spread deceitful misinformation about my church and pastor to a far and wide audience who really have no ability to check if their accusations are true. Adding a veneer of “credibility” to their distorted nonsense is Bob’s supposed “eye witness” testimony of his one visit to a singles group at our church in 2006.

We have been having inquirers from literally all over the world who have come across Bob’s website or have heard Coleman’s webcasts. In order to provide something of a quick reference, I have formatted one of my personal emails to Bob in which I answered some of his key accusations. I did some re-editing for stylistic purposes and added my personal “editor notes” to provide some context to my response if need be. I provide Bob’s claim first bracketed with asterisks, then any notes I feel I need to supply will come next, followed by my original comments.

I hope to have a follow up article in the future addressing John Coleman specifically as well as Bob’s use of him as a supporter of his views.

I would imagine most people won’t find this post particularly interesting just because it involves a local gadfly. I do not speak with any authority on behalf of Grace Church’s leadership. In other words, I haven’t been commissioned to present this work. I do it on my own as a member who wishes to silence some seriously malicious and nonfactual criticism. There really is no need to turn on the comments with this post, but I do welcome any emails. My email is located on my profile page.

*The Guild and Foundry were/are Purpose Driven ministries*

[Editor’s note: The Guild is a singles ministry for older singles 35+. At one time it was pastored by a friend of mine named Tom Patton who now pastors another fellowship group at Grace. The Guild is the group Bob visited once in 2006 in order to draw his conclusions about Grace becoming church growth. The Foundry was a singles group for ages 21-30. It was once pastored by a fellow named Kurt Gebhards who moved on to pastor a church in North Carolina. Once he left, instead of continuing the Foundry, the leadership at Grace decided to allow the group to become a part of the college ministry].

(Fred) There is a rather big distinction between Grace and a Purpose Driven Life ministry. I can clearly see what a purpose driven ministry looks like: The watered down preaching, trendy music replacing good worship music, the emphasis on getting people to feel comfortable rather than on sound doctrinal teaching, marginalizing older saints as not having an important role to play in the life of the church, attempting to be relevant toward current cultural issues, for example, the interview Rick Warren did with Obama/McCain in the summer of 2008.

Grace is not doing this stuff, Bob. You are crying booger bears when none exist. As I have stated at the outset of this debate, both the Guild and the Foundry are singles groups. By definition, they have a different tone in those fellowship groups because they are singles. Working Disciples, the previous singles ministry, was like that before the Foundry replaced them. The college department has that tone. What you perceive as a pervasive PDL philosophy is just singles ministry activity. It is not bad, evil, or transformational, and it does not spill into the remainder of the church. If, for example, your absurd claim that Tom Patton is a “change agent” were true, you would see such things in the new ministry where he pastors, Cornerstone fellowship group. He took it over when the previous pastor moved on to another ministry.

*Their webpages were deleted because of my original paper.*

[Editor’s note: Bob claims Grace Church is intentionally changing websites to hide what he is allegedly exposing. Pastor Coleman and his side-kick, Robert Klenck, who is the source of a lot of the Church Growth philosophy Bob claims is happening at Grace, also accuses the leadership of Grace of intentionally hiding “proof” when it gets exposed].

(Fred) No they didn’t remove any websites. I told you in a previous email that I spoke with the webmaster. He happens to be a friend of mine. The guy who maintains the website for the Guild at that time was updating and changing the webpage for normal purposes. He was not changing them because you “exposed” some evil under belly going on there at the Guild. It was just a coincidence that those pages were changed around the same time you published your “paper.”

*You had a chance to contact Robert Klenck who verified all this. You could have called Coleman’s show and argued, but you didn’t. *

[Editor’s note: John Coleman is a former inner-city pastor in Los Angeles. He once was part of an apologetic radio program known for taking on controversial issues, especially within the African-American community of LA. He also pastored a church for a while. According to a number of personal contacts of mine, around 1998, Coleman was dismissed from his church due to allegations of inappropriateness with male congregants. He was also known as being somewhat pugnacious with those with whom he disagreed. He eventually started his own “ministry” with a small number of supporters].

(Fred) I happened to have contacted both guys and neither one of them would respond to my emails. I have attempted to email Coleman concerning some other matters unrelated to our debate. He refuses to be corrected or challenged regarding his beliefs. He returns my emails unanswered and ignored, merely condemning me. So much for wanting to listen. Of course, I happen to know folks who are down in the area where Coleman is and have many negative things to say about his shameful conduct as a self-appointed minister.

*There are other experts in the PDC who have written well known books exposing the PDC who have corroborated that the Guild and Foundry were PDC.*

(Fred) And those experts are? You name James Sundquist. It may interest you to know he sent a copy of his book to GTY seeking John’s endorsement. At one of the Shepherd’s Conferences sometime in the mid-2000s, John mentioned the book, along with some others, as a possible resource on church growth philosophy. His recommendation was based upon a quick over view of the promotional copy he had received. I later had the opportunity to read it more thoroughly, and after doing so, I told Phil Johnson John shouldn’t recommend the book because it was conspiratorial in tone, appeared to come from a hyper-fundamentalist, KJV-only perspective, was poorly researched, and terribly argued. I would imagine you had probably encountered the book before you came to the Guild that one and only evening so you were predisposed to see PDL-new age-one world government stuff behind every tree.

*Are they also fools?*

[Editor’s note: The reference is to John Coleman, Robert Klenck, and James Sundquist as “experts” in the field of church growth]

(Fred) Let’s put it this way: they are a small, almost stand alone group. It makes me wonder if they really have the ability to discern. The question you need to ask is why it is these few individuals, who happen to run in the fringe circles of fundamentalism, are alone the ones seeing all these things and no one else. Believe me, I don’t care for Rick Warren and his pragmatic ministry style. However, I am not going to speak lies against the guy. What I see from you and your friends is the speaking of lies against Warren rather than offering reliable criticism where it is due.

*When you were given Klenck’s paper you called it “conspiratorial nonsense.” But the paper is basically inerrant. In calling an inerrant paper nonsense, you are denying truth.*

(Fred) That is because it was (an still is) conspiratorial nonsense. He is claiming all this infiltrating is leading to the one world government. Such is conspiracy my friend. Of course you have a specific definition of “inerrant” and any deviation from that definition is denying truth and reality so it is almost worthless to even reason with you. It is the same way I argued when I was a KJV onlyist: Set the 1611 up as the ultimate, inerrant standard for the Bible and any departure from the stated standard is automatically heresy and apostasy.

*The man who facilitated my small group was Alex Fitzgerald. He didn’t teach the bible. He’s a trained facilitator. *

[Editor’s note: Bob, John Coleman, and Robert Klenck, attempt to argue that any small discussion groups within a church are really dialectic sessions designed to re-train (Bob uses the term “brainwash”) the participants to reject traditional Church models and embrace the new community model that readily affirms the so-called New World Order. The men who lead these “small groups” are considered to be “facilitators” who direct the brainwashing session, as it were. Alex Fitzgerald led the small group Bob was a part of when he attended his one and only time. When I spoke with Alex about Bob, he remembers him spending most of his visit rambling on about how Al Mohler was a U.N. agent sent to infiltrate the church. Bob was also bothered that Alex read his Bible from his electronic Blackberry rather than from a physical, printed Bible].

(Fred) Seeing that I know Alex rather well and I happen to know what he believes as a Christian. Such accusations border on the fantastic. A trained facilitator? Like he attended a top-secret seminar or something? Good grief.

*Find out how Patton and Gebhards knew to bring this model into GCC. Where did they learn it from?*

(Fred) Uhhh? They went to Master’s. I went to Master’s. I took the same pastoring and sermon prep classes as they did. I can tell you right now, they don’t teach Purpose Driven Life stuff. We read Warren’s book so as to be familiar with it and critique it.

*Instead of opposing truth, why don’t you help find the truth?*

(Fred) I believe I have the truth seeing I have first hand knowledge and know well the person’s being accused by you. Seeing that you only attended once and are making knee jerk reactions in light of a false view of church growth philosophy, I don’t believe you do have the truth. But I don’t believe that matters to you. I doubt very seriously if you were shown to be wrong with overwhelming evidence you would not do anything to repent of your slander against my friends and church. In fact you would attempt to spin things around in order to save face.

*Fred, Several people know that the Guild and Foundry were PDC.*

[Editor’s note: Bob has often stated there are “ex-members” of Grace who left the church because they saw the slide we were taking into church growth/PDL philosophy. The problem, however, is that Bob has never been able to produce these individuals as star witnesses in his defense. I have repeatedly asked him to contact them so they could in turn contact me or any other pastor at Grace. Though I haven’t personally met them, I believe there may had been individuals loosely affiliated with Grace who were irregular attendees who justify their departure from our church by referring to Bob’s claims. But they do not represent long term, actively involved members who left our church after their repeated attempts to alert the leadership of what was going on were ignored].

(Fred) Again, you need to find members of Grace, Bob. James Sundquist doesn’t even live here in LA as far as I know; hasn’t even come to Grace. Coleman and Klenck are also examples. None of them have interviewed any of these men you accuse of “transforming” Grace. Just like you, they are basing their judgment on secondary sources and hearsay.

So. The challenge for you Bob is first, tell me where you attend Church, then tell me about these members at Grace who see things like you do. Are they up-standing, actively involved members, or the fringy, hanging around the edge of things folks who maybe come to Grace for a year and then leave over some stupid thing that may happen to them?

*I know one person that told me The Guild and Foundry were PD left those ministries for that reason. He liked Macarthur’s preaching though.*

(Fred) And that person is…? Can you tell the person to email me and tell me his or her story? Was that person an active member, or some guy coming around to a singles ministry? Lots of people fit this category of liking John’s teaching but they get rubbed the wrong way and leave our church bitter. Generally they come around for about 9 months to a year before they leave. They generally get exposed later as being unsaved and have a whole heck of a lot more spiritual problems than what we were aware of at the time and the reason they leave is because their sin got stepped on.

*Why do you care where I attend church?*

(Fred) Because it reveals something about who you are, what you are about, who stands behind you, who influences you. When I spoke with you out on the street at Grace you told me you didn’t have a church. Is that still the case now? Being a rogue, spiritual “lone gunman” is unbiblical. John, Jude, and Peter all testified that we should be leery of those folks who have no church affiliation and claim to speak on the authority of the apostles, i.e. NT theology and doctrine. Such people were to be turned away, for they are wolves seeking to destroy the church. The fact that you are secretive and unwilling to tell me troubles me and causes me alarm for your soul.

*Fred, Well I can see that there is no convincing you that the church growth movement has infiltrated your church. I won’t attempt to convince you further about this.*

(Fred) Yes. Your insistence that our church is infiltrated by church growth is utterly unconvincing. I don’t think anyone who is an actively involved member of our church, who actually knows the ministries in question along with the people who are involved there, who is sound and stable in the Word of God and is not easily led astray into error, would be convinced of anything you wrote. On the other hand, only those people who are not grounded in spirit and Word would be led astray by our material. So far, the individuals who agree with you are those type of individuals. You have yet to produce one person who was an active member of Grace for any length of time who became alarmed about what you wrote and left.

Profile Not Available

When ever I choose to confront gross, spiritual error head-on, I always take a bit of a risk. Like squirting a water hose up at a big wasp nest hanging on the side of the house. That is just one of the hazards of blogging with any amount of substance and then inviting readers to leave feed back: the conspiracy trolls become agitated.

My most recent troll encounter involves a post from last week where I linked to an article I wrote addressing the spiritual danger Christians face if they embrace a belief in conspiracy theories. Believe me, there are folks out there in many churches whose lives are fully consumed by conspiracy theories. In a way it is a grievous spiritual bondage that only serves to keep the person ensnared to fear or off balance concerning the things of Christ.Of course, the conspiracy believer thinks he knows truth and is standing up for truth and warning the people of God about the “truth.” Sadly, however, his perception of reality is warped and all the time he spends documenting his chosen conspiracy for those who may listen is really of no spiritual value in the long run. It is merely comprised of wood, hay, and stubble, and it will only be burned up in the end (1 Cor. 3:12-15).Along with my link to an article I wrote about Christians and conspiracy theories, I linked to a web article written by one of our more unusual John MacArthur/Grace Church critics from over the years named Bob Johnson. Bob is of the opinion – an opinion he formed after one visit – that Grace has succumb to Purpose Driven Life philosophy, Marxist-Hegelian beliefs, and other nefarious church growth ideas.

If you were to force yourself to stumble your way through his deranged document, you will discover he despises small fellowship groups. The leaders of the small groups “brainwashes” all the participants to think like the larger group – think like the “One World Government.” Moreover, he is critical of teams of Christians going out on a Saturday to serve a single mother with two kids by helping her around the house and baby-sitting her children so she can have a free day to go shop. Why this is bad is something of a mystery. At any rate, according to Bob, coming together in one accord so as to have unity in Christ, and groups of believers serving those in need within the Body of Christ, are really satanic “change agents” looking to undermine the Church.

Amazing, I know.

Well, Bob has some sycophants who feel it is their sworn duty to defend Bob’s charges. So with in just a matter of hours I receive comments from at least two, possibly three, Bob supporters (I think one of them was the Bob in question), adding supplemental material to Bob’s article and accusing me of being a “damage controller.”

Most of their comments I deleted because they were naming people at my church as being “change agents” of the devil in this grand conspiracy and I refused to allow them to slander their character. However, to give you a bit a flavor of how these folks think, allow me to interact with a comment left by “Charles.”

After naming one of our elders at Grace, he accuses him of, “[sitting] on the board of Leadership Resources International, a church growth org. THIS IS A FACT!” Hmmm…? And what exactly is sinful about church growth exactly? Particularly if it is biblically based church growth? If you check out the website of the group in question, it is pretty clear to me they have a desire to train leaders to be biblical and to impact their communities for the gospel. Why this is a bad thing is never explained. I guess it is because the group may employ some secular ideas of management to help with the practical implications of some of their goals.

Commenters aside, what strikes me as most predictable about a conspiracy troll like “Charles” is the anonymity. As soon as I read a wacky conspiracy comment I know, with almost absolute certainty, that when I click the blogger profile it will be “Not Found” or “Not Available.” No personal information on the person exists. If there is a profile, the person has created some user name like ‘truthseeker” or “benotdeceived.” Never is there any information about who the person really is, what he or she does, perhaps where they attend church.

When pressed for this basic information, the usual excuse is “I don’t put personal information on the web.” That is a bogus response, because no one is asking for anything personal like a house address. An even lamer excuse is, “It doesn’t matter who I am, you need to deal with my arguments.” Come on, we just want to know a bit about who you are so as to gain some insight as to why you have chosen to fixate on the conspiracy under discussion. If the person claims to be a Christian, well then certainly he attends a church somewhere. I would like to know what church it is and whether or not the pastor knows one of his congregants adheres to such bizarre views of the world. If he is married, does his wife care that he has wrapped himself in these alternative histories of the world?

Honestly, I personally think the cloak of anonymity is cowardly, if not also lazy. If the troll is genuinely concerned about exposing the transformation of Grace, they will come out and put a face on their profile. At least Bob has the guts to come and protest at our Shepherd’s Conference.

The Bob Johnson Saga

A Conspiracy Driven Life

Opening Remarks:I posted this email response of mine to Bob Johnson back in 2006. Since then, however, he has become more vocal and aggressive against John MacArthur, even putting together a website and an occasionally updated blog so as to post his rants. Individuals outside of Grace Community Church have contacted John MacArthur’s radio ministry, Grace to You, looking for a response. The radio ministry doesn’t make it a habit to respond to such muddled antagonists like Bob, but because of the nature of my personal blog, I have. So any meaningful response to Bob comes through a handful of blog articles I have written about him. Due to recent events during the fall of 2009 with a local L.A. intercity “pastor” by the name of John Coleman who has allowed Bob to teach his error about Grace Church on his personal internet webcasts, I thought it necessary to revisit my posts regarding Bob and update them with new personal comments. I have re-edited the original post just a bit and have added new editorial comments that provide more context to the claims Bob makes against Grace:

Some of you may remember my post highlighting a conversation with a fellow by the name of Bob who was on the sidewalk out side of my Church passing out literature claiming that two of the single ministries were promoting Purpose-Driven Life/ Saddleback methodology. [Editor’s note: Those two ministries in question are The Guild, a fellowship group aimed at singles 35 and older, and The Foundry, a fellowship group aimed at college graduates 21 to 30. The Foundry disbanded in early 2009 because the pastor, Kurt Gebhards, took a pastorate in North Carolina and the elders of Grace thought it better to close it, rather than look for a replacement pastor]

Bob’s literature [available on-line HERE] further charged that these ministries were promoting what is called an Hegelian-dialectic process of “brainwashing” its members to all think alike. These dialectic sessions take place in small group settings and because Marxists have historically used small group settings to mind control the people, all of the small groups affiliated with the two suspect singles ministries are engaging in this Hegelian-dialectic process and thus stoking the hotbeds of Marxist revolutionaries.

Since I posted that original article, Bob and another fellow by the name of Robert who agrees with Bob, have been emailing me off and on. They both have been attempting to convince me of my slavish devotion to Grace and being blinded to the truth. The phrases “open your eyes” and “have an open mind” are oft repeated in their emails.

They have pointed me to the writings of a Robert Klenck and Dean Gotcher who claim to be the foremost authorities on the Church Growth Movement, and a local LA pastor named John Coleman who regularly entertains Klenck and Gotcher’s ideas on his web cast.

[Editor’s note: Robert Klenck is an orthopaedic surgeon by profession. He apparently has a propensity to entertain conspiracy theory type ideas such as the nefarious dealings of the U.N. in the world and their alleged attempts to usher in a one world government that will set up the anti-Christ. Much of his teaching regarding “church growth” methodology has been developed in this matrix of conspiracy laden ideology. Because his teaching against “church growth” has this conspiracy driven philosophy behind it, his so-called exposes’ against church growth methodology is unique, if not out right unusual and strange. He thinks that he has gotten to the real heart of the matter with identifying “church growth” methodology by highlighting the so-called Hegelian-Marxist connection and the small group dynamic.

Dean Gotcher has a similar approach to exposing “church growth” ideas as Klenck, but as I understand it, he has distanced himself from Klenck and Coleman. John Coleman is a former pastor who has had an “apologetic” style ministry in L.A. for a number of years. He once participated on a local apologetic radio program with the addition of pastoring a Baptist church. Around 1998 he was dismissed from his church due to some serious accusations of inappropriate behavior with male congregants. He now maintains a “house church” with a handful of supporters. He also has kept up a webcast called RAM radio on which he has frequently entertained the conspiracy theory ideas of Klenck]

Well, for the sake of providing a more comprehensive critique of what Bob is charging and providing an antidote to the non-sense about the core of church growth methodology being directly tied to Hegelian philosophy so that if your Church has small discipleship groups you are breeding Commies in your midst, I wanted to publish one of my more extensive emails to Bob that interacts with his key charges.

Just to make it perfectly clear to my readers, I am NOT speaking for Grace Community Church in any official capacity. My interaction with Bob is solely on my own free time. Though I do believe I am responding to him as a concerned member of Grace, my words are my own and I bare the sole responsibility for them.

Bob,
I appreciate the email and the frankness of your words. I will address each of your points in turn, but by way of introduction it is important for you to realize that you are not unique. I realize you may think you have some sort of special message of alarm for the people of Grace; that you have some sort of wall watching ministry where you feel compelled of the Lord to alert us to some special message that you alone with a handful of friends have discovered. However, you must know that you stand at the end of a long line of odd individuals with an assortment of odd beliefs.

Grace has always had people like yourself standing on the side walks out in front of our church warning the members of some bad teaching or philosophy infiltrating our ranks. Years ago, Darwin Fish claimed we were all under the influence of psychology and he and his band of merry messengers handout papers like you have. Other people claimed John denied the gospel because he denied the blood of Christ, that he denied the deity of Christ because he held to incarnational sonship, and that he taught sinless perfection because of his views of Romans 7. Other individuals have attempted to warn us about his use of the NASB from the pulpit. We have received hundreds of copies of quack researcher Gail Riplinger’s book, New Age Bible Versions with desperate notes attached begging us to tell John to stop using the NASB for his preaching. Another group of protesters accuse John of being in league with neo-cons and Zionists, while others hand out papers “documenting” how the CFR and Trilateral Commission controls John because of certain views he holds.

So Bob, please don’t take it personally when people dismiss you as a kook. We have had our fair share of them around here over the years claiming they have some prophetic warning about the goings on at our church which are utterly nonsensical.

Furthermore, you must also understand our annoyance toward your accusations against two of our pastors we have known personally for years. For you, an ill informed outsider, to publish a paper accusing two of our fine men of basically being liars and brute beasts seeking the destruction of our church and the souls of the people in our church, only rankles us and closes our minds to your message. You claim you would not lie to me, but the very fact you are raising slanderous accusations against these two men demonstrates you are already doing this.

Now, I won’t say it is lying just yet, because I will grant you being woefully ignorant of the facts and there is teachability on your part. With that in mind, let me address your points:

*I knew that the Guild was a purpose driven ministry before I ever went there. It is obvious from the language on their website. I only went there to corroborate that fact. I suspected that the Foundry was purpose driven from the website as well. This suspicion was confirmed to me when I went there. It is not necessary that I go to these ministries more than once or even go at all in order to know this. I would estimate that the Guild is 85% purpose driven and the Foundry is 65% purpose driven*.
[Editor’s note: Bob visited the Guild once, meaning only one time. His accusations against our singles ministries is based upon this one visit to a Friday night study in the spring of 2006. Bob has also since modified his percentages claiming now that both ministries are/were 100% purpose driven].

(Fred) How did you know these ministries were “purpose driven” before you went there to see for yourself? Did you conclude this your self or did someone tell you? You deduced that from scanning over a website and witnessing “language” you find suspicious? [Editor’s note: Bob claims the use of certain language implies a PDL or Hegelian-Marxist influence. So, if someone were to say, “I want the Bible study to catch a vision for missions”, the phrase catch a vision is a PDL term, thus by implication, the user of such language adheres to the so-called “church growth” methodology Klenck and Bob point out].

I take it that it does not matter to you that all the leadership (many of whom I know personally at each group) denies these claims? From my observation of your paper you wrote, you have a description of church growth that I would reject. I could care less what Hegel or Marx taught. So what if they taught a small group methodology to control people, this is not what is happening at Grace. In fact, I notice through out your article that you have this hang up with small groups, like the application group you supposedly attended. Small groups have been an integral part of GCC for years, long before Rick Warren was even pastoring at Saddleback.

I thoroughly enjoyed my small groups when I was involved with a singles ministry (by the way, the small, application group dynamic is only found in the singles ministries; they are not found in the other adult fellowship groups). The home Bible studies and the application group is where I got to know people on an intimate level. I had accountability as a believer and I was prayed for and stretched to think biblically. To automatically equate any small group dynamic as you define it through Marxist-Hegelian filters with being “church growth” is utterly absurd. Like I told Rob who raised a similar objection, it would be like a person accusing John of allowing Mormonism to infiltrate GCC because one of his main series is called the “Fulfilled Family.” Because Mormons speak of having “Fulfilled Families” we are imbibing Mormon theology. such a comparison is ridiculous.

You (and the Klenck fellow) seem to have a fringe definition of what you perceive as church growth philosophy and because folks at Grace may use “buzz” words you find suspect or enact group dynamics you defined as suspect, it is automatically labeled as purpose driven and church growth. This is presumption at its worse.

Let me break up your next point and address individual claims:

*I spoke with a man who read my letter who attended the Guild and the Foundry for 4 months. He corroborated what I said*

(Fred) Who exactly was this person? Is he credible as a critic of these ministries? By “credible” I mean to say was he someone actively involved with these ministries where he was attending regularly, had friends within these ministries, and actually knew and interacted with the leadership of these ministries? I have met many people over the years who have attended GCC’s single ministries who have been critical of them, but when their criticisms are evaluated, they flow from some personality conflict with other folks in the group, or the fact the leadership confronted the individual about specific maturity issues, or the person came into the group with a certain level of expectation as to what to find and when those expectations were met with disappointment the person tries to find some fault with everyone in the fellowship group and the church in general. I have seen this time and again.

So, in my mind, for this person to have any credibility as a critic accusing the ministries in question of operating with PDL philosophy, he would have had to have been actively involved with them for more than four months. If you think about it, four months is just 16 Sundays if the person came regularly and 16 Bible study times if the person attended those regularly. That is hardly enough time for him to draw such radical conclusions unless of course the person came to the ministry with these presuppositions in mind.

*He told me that these ministries are run differently from J Macarthur’s teaching. He told me that they are both extremely seeker friendly ministries and he told me that most in attendance there are not Christians. He told me that relationships are always discussed and emphasized in these ministries*.

(Fred) How exactly are they ran “differently” from MacArthur’s teaching? We do make a distinction between fellowship groups and the main service; a fact many of Grace’s critics such as yourself tend to overlook. A Sunday school class dynamic is totally different than the overall dynamic of the main Church.

At any rate, all the men I have spoken with at length about your charges affirm that the Sunday morning portion is spent in music, fellowship, and then the preaching or teaching from the word. This is exactly how I remember Working Disciples, the former single’s ministry these other two replaced when all the singles got married to each other. What should we do differently? I would expect more activities because singles have the time and desire to involve themselves in many activities. I did when I was single. There is nothing wrong with having a lot of activities.

Additionally, how is having a large group of non-Christians in attendance being automatically “seeker friendly?” Grace has had a 35 plus year average of having a large group of unbelievers attending our Church. It would only be a problem if the ministry sought to water down or ignore biblical teaching in order to accommodate the unbelievers so as to keep them comfortable. This is not going on with either one of these ministries. Furthermore, why exactly is it wrong or suspicious to discuss and emphasize relationships? Again, this is only a problem if that emphasis replaces the authority and teaching of God’s Word. This is not happening in either one of these ministries. The singles ministry I was involved with frequently emphasized relationships with others outside the Church and discussed relationships with each other in the immediate group from a biblical perspective. In fact, this is something common in single ministries simply because the main thought of singles is being married. There is nothing sinful about that, especially if the fellowship group is providing an opportunity for godly singles to potentially marry each other and is teaching the biblical perspective on these issues. You mistakenly assume it equates something bad, but it does not.

*He told me that he didn’t understand why this was so (I Do). He told me that he was so troubled by what he saw happening at the Guild that he attempted to speak with the pastor. He said that he avoided him for a long time and then finally when it came time to discuss a meeting time, the pastor refused to meet with him because this man insisted on having a witness present so the pastor would be held accountable. He refused to speak with him with a witness present! This man is highly credible. He also told me that the Foundry is worse that the Guild (which I already could tell). This man knows that these are not Christian ministries.*

(Fred) I cannot speak for this pastor, but knowing him like I do, I doubt the credibility and accuracy of this testimony. Again, you automatically assume the worse because you are attempting to uncover bug-a-bears and want him to be a bad guy. I personally would like to hear from this pastor about this specifically named person, as well as get the person to tell me exactly what he or she did in order to speak with him. At this point, this accusation is speculative and falsely accuses a personal friend’s character that I know is not who he is.

Let me break this point up into a handful of comments:

*The foremost Christian authority in the country regarding the church growth movement (CGM) is Dr. Robert Klenck MD. Dr. Klenck knows that the CGM/purpose driven church is at the Guild and Foundry. He knows from viewing their web pages*. [Editor’s note: Bob often appeals to Klenck as one of the “foremost Christian authorities” even though he evaluates church growth ministry according to his bizarre presuppositions regarding conspiracy theories and is virtually unknown to anyone else who has actually written on the subject].

(Fred) The foremost Christian authority in the country? Really? Seeing that I have never heard of him except through your paper, and a host of other folks I know who study church growth stuff also have never heard of him, I believe that claim is a tad exaggerated. I further find it amazing he can draw such a conclusion about the ministries of Grace by “viewing their web pages.” This is being presumptuous and such an attitude can be foolish and sinful. Once again, Klenck has a unique definition of church growth he attempts to tie to his so-called expertise in Marxism and Hegel’s philosophy. The use of words he believes is suspicious does not immediately equate his accusations. We don’t define church growth and seeker sensitive philosophy according to his themes, nor should we.

I mentioned Klenck to a variety of elders and teachers at Grace and his charges about the Marxist-Hegel elements and they all shrug their shoulders and dismiss the guy as hunting windmills. In order for Klenck to be correct about Grace, he would have to demonstrate that we are specifically using the church growth philosophy he defines in the negative manner he accuses the leadership. He would also have to demonstrate where he has actually seen a specific instance of its negative effects upon the church and document it. Has he? All he has done is accuse the two ministries of falling into his self defined patterns of church growth, a philosophy apparently hard to define according to you.

*Other Christians know besides for me. Would you like to hear what he says about this? Please do. Go to www.johnecoleman.org and click on Ram Radio Stream. Scroll down about halfway to Ram Radio Live 1-21-06. Listen to the first hour of this 2 hour broadcast. Dr. Klenck will say that the CGM agenda is going at GCC at full swing. Do you think that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about?*

(Fred) I did listen to the link and all I can say is that I am stunned of the horrible misinformation John and his friend are passing along. I am disappointed that someone like Coleman would be so easily sucked into believing it. I am troubled by this and truly wonder if he has any real discernment. I take it that you are the “Bob” feeding them the poor information about GCC? A couple of things struck me from their comments.

First is their berating the email to you from “George” who refused to meet with you after another certain pastor told him not to do so. Apparently, you, Coleman and Klenck see that as thought control or hiding the truth or something. We however see this as shepherding our people. Coleman of all people, who is a pastor, should know better than to bad mouth what happened. I don’t know who George is, but it is the duty of any pastor of Grace to protect him from being led astray. I am sorry if it offends you that we think of you as a wolf, but your material and protest behavior out in front of our church place you in that category. It is a biblical mandate to protect those who are immature and unstable from false teaching. For you guys to see that as negative demonstrates to me a woeful misconduct with the souls of the saints. I would expect Coleman to protect his members from some Fred Price wanna be who wished to meet alone with them. It is his calling as a pastor.

Second, Coleman suggests that John MacArthur is out of touch and unaware of what is happening in these ministries and he seems to think it is his duty to inform John of what is going on. I can assure you that John is actively involved with all the ministries at Grace in spite of our Church’s large size. He meets with the staff weekly when he can, as well as monthly with the elders, one or two who are members of those two ministries in question. To assume John’s ministry is so big that it is near impossible for him to know what is really happening under his nose is another example of presumption.

*Mohler is a fellow of a UN-NGO. He’s a fellow of the ERLC. The ERLC is a UN-NGO. Pastors, leaders and staff workers at GCC denied these facts for one year. Why? Why did they lie?* [Editor’s note: Bob has a fixation with Al Mohler, Jr. and even claims that Al’s loose affiliation with a non-governmental organization in the U.N. makes him really a satanic agent who’s duty it is to water down the Christian church as a whole with his teaching]

(Fred) Are you sure they lied that the Faith and Family group was part of the U.N.’s non-governmental organization list, or that they denied your charges of one world conspiracies? I have never denied that the ERLC was listed under the UN’s NGOs. I have stated that there is nothing sinister about such an affiliation. I am guessing you are from an independent fundamentalist background and adhere to rigid (unbiblical) secondary separation principles? Also, Al is a fellow, which means he is on a board of directors or has some other loose affiliations with the group. Moreover, several other prominent men are fellows like Paige Patterson and the late Carl Henry. Are they guilty by association like Al is?

*Mohler is dedicated to fulfilling the principles of the UN charter. This goes without saying and it naturally follows. Also, I was told this by his associate. Anyone denying this denies reality. If you think that a man can serve 2 masters, then you deny scripture*

(Fred) If the principles of the UN charter are as benign as they are listed on their website, http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/index.html I would agree with them. I think because you operate from this 70s, one world government eschatology in the vein of Hal Lindsey, you start with a goofy presupposition that the UN is going to bring in some one world government ready for the anti-Christ. I judge the UN as being incompetent and too given over to corruption to accomplish such a grand scheme. If Al Mohler believes he can exploit the UN charter to advance the gospel in the world, I say we let him try. As for the serving 2 masters thing, why can’t Al Mohler cooperate with the UN and be a Christian? What exactly does it mean to “serve two masters” in your mind? How are you defining that? Am I serving two masters if I agree to uphold the employee agreement at say, Wal-Mart or Target, and still be a Christian? I believe you are misapplying Jesus’s words.

*As I stated in my letter, the CGM is not easily understood. The leaders at GCC can’t recognize it. Also, do you think that those bringing this agenda into Grace would admit it to you? They know that you cannot discern what is going on* [Editor’s note: Notice how on one hand with Bob’s arguments outlined above, the Church Growth Movement (CGM) is easily recognizable by him, Klenck, and Coleman as having infiltrated Grace Church. It’s noticeable on our websites and is visibly taking place in our singles ministries. Anyone who would take the time to examine their claims would see it so plainly. Yet , on the other hand, here we have Bob claiming the CGM is not “easily understood” except by some supposed expert like himself and Klenck. In a manner of speaking, Bob’s teaching smacks of gnosticism, or the idea that only a few “anointed” individuals know the truth and their message must be heeded].

(Fred) Then basically, if you believe this Bob, you are charging the elders and pastors of Grace with intentionally lying to and willfully deceiving its members. In a nutshell, you are charging our pastoral staff as being unbelievers. Is that your position, Bob? Out of all of those godly men who are leading Grace, none of them have the ability to discern what you can discern and those who can are lying about it and trying to hide it? Is that what you are saying?

*Since I handed out my letter, as I count it, 19 pages have been taken off their website. These are the pages that contained the purpose driven phrases and revealed the purpose driven agenda that I quoted from in my letter. Why were these pages taken off? Obviously because they want to hide the PD language and agenda written on these pages. Now when someone reads my letter, it can’t be verified from the website. If the 19 pages were all Biblical, then why take them off?* [Editor’s note: Bob, Klenck, and Coleman all assert that Grace church is trying to hide the evidence they bring against the church leadership by removing the alleged “evidence” from websites, or letting pastor go, or shutting up members by threats and the like. Coleman has even gone as far as claiming an overt racism on the part of Grace’s elders because he, being a black man, is “smeared” as being “nuts” by the white elders of the church. He also argues other motivations of wanting to shut him up about the “truth” such as protecting the money source from rich donors]

(Fred) I can’t speak to that directly. I will ask around and see what folks say. However, I know the website updates regularly and old stuff gets removed and replaced by new stuff. But, to suggest that the staff of these ministries are intentionally hiding things is again charging them with lying and being dishonest and thus accusing them of being ungodly and unbelievers.

*I know of a church in the LA area that is becoming purpose driven. They have spiritual gift assessments, diverse small group ministry, leadership seminars for accountability and purposes of “relationship building”. A man in their office told me that they couldn’t be PD because the “vast majority of their staff and pastors come from the Masters College and Seminary*

(Fred) Do you care to tell me the name of this Church so I can contact them about your accusations? Who was this man in the office? Again Bob, you have yet to establish, as has Klenck and Coleman, that diverse small groups and leadership seminars for accountability and relationship building are inherently evil and unbiblical. Just because Marx or Hegel or any other crackpot in the past utilized these things for their purposes does not equate to us using these things in the same manner. Methodology is not in itself evil, but those who utilize it for such purposes. Here is our main disconnect: Where you see evil behind small groups, we see a good thing that has been beneficial for the spiritual health of our Church. When you continually insist, despite our protests to the contrary, that this is what we are doing, you are headed into the realms of paranoia.

*Did you know that GCC officials called the police on me the second week I was there giving out my letter? I did nothing wrong. The GCC officials lied to the police. Why?*

(Fred) I spoke with one of our key security men, the man who told the police about your presence on the sidewalk, and he told me that you certainly did nothing wrong. He never accused you of wrong doing at all. In fact, he had no problem with you handing out your paper on the sidewalk. The patrol unit was already at GCC because they routinely drive through our parking lots to help deter thieves which we have had problems with in the past. The security guy simply stopped the car, told the officer you were there and asked him to stop by and make sure you knew what your rights were and were not. That is all. Unless you come on to our property, you have every right to protest out in front of your Church. Of course, we also reserve the right to dismiss you as a crank and heckle you if it is deemed necessary.

*It sounds to me that you are naive. This agenda can only be at GCC because Christians like you lack knowledge and discernment*.

(Fred) Just a closing thought. Ok, lets suppose I am naive and lack knowledge and discernment, what is the end goal of this “agenda” as you call it? If church growth has truly infiltrated Grace, how will it manifest itself in the open beyond just the use of trendy buzz words and small groups meeting together without the Bibles opened? Could you elaborate on that for me? [Editor’s note: This is the one key question neither Bob, nor Klenck, nor Coleman have ever answered. They refuse to interact with me or anyone else who has attempted to correct them of their slanderous misinformation]

Thanks

Fred